Loggerheads?

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Re: Loggerheads?

Postby AgentOrange » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:03 pm

ianwhit wrote:Good to know that you and your campaign would be happy to have a badge with the 3 loggerheads in different positions.

I'm not speaking for the campaign. This is my personal account.

Secondly, I would only be satisfied with the above if all other avenues have been explored. Beforehand, the club would need to provide documentary evidence (from a reputable source) which clearly outlines in detail why the Loggerheads' triangular pattern cannot be replicated.
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Re: Loggerheads?

Postby bodge4uk » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:08 pm

ianwhit wrote:
AgentOrange wrote:I would advise the club to consult some experts in the field and report back with the findings. If they can publicly produce tangible evidence that the positioning argument means we cannot have the Loggerheads back in their iconic pattern, they will have to work around this by tweaking the angles slightly. Three Loggerheads in a straight line would suffice.


So you are saying you would be happy for the Loggerheads to be positioned elsewhere other than the traditional triangular positioning?


I personally am not to bothered as the same club & in my life time I have seen a "Shrew", "Loggerheads" & current form.
I am simply saying why not allow the loggerheads group to do the financial leg work & work with them & ALL parties including supporters away groups. Just an idea to end the saga
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Re: Loggerheads?

Postby stushrew » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:45 pm

Bodge - I agree. I would much rather the club spent its money on players to keep us competitive on the field. This is the first and foremost aspect any true fan of the club would surely want money spent on. Maybe some people would rather us be in the conference and have a pretty badge?

Agent - can you provide the sales figure for shirts before and after the badge change to substantiate your claim it would increase revenue for the club. I don't know a single person who refuses to purchase club merchandise because of the badge.Maybe you know some but it may be just the circle of fans you have round you.

I spoke to one guy who was bitching about the badge at Evesham in preseason to me for about 20 minutes. When I mentioned that if he was so against it, why was he wearing a current season shirt he shut up. There are people that just want to moan and attack the club about anything they can and will jump on any anti-club bandwagon going.

As with Agent, this is just my personal opinion - I personally don't give a flying one about a badge - I just want my team to do well.
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Re: Loggerheads?

Postby AgentOrange » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:31 pm

bodge4uk wrote:I am simply saying why not allow the loggerheads group to do the financial leg work. Just an idea to end the saga

Why should cash-strapped Shrewsbury Town fans do the "financial legwork" to correct a mistake which was actually made by the club? Does that sound fair to you?

It is also not a saga. We have a problem with the current clip art badge out of principle and the discontent will continue to rumble on until it is removed and replaced by the Loggerheads.

We've got the strength of feeling and, importantly, reasoned argument on our side. The only opposition comes from a handful of people like yourself who either say "I don't care about the badge" or defeatist nonsense like "what's done is done".
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Re: Loggerheads?

Postby AgentOrange » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:10 pm

stushrew wrote:As with Agent, this is just my personal opinion - I personally don't give a flying one about a badge - I just want my team to do well.

I was waiting for you to turf up on this thread, SoullessStu. Glad to see that you didn’t disappoint.

We clearly see the game of football very differently. To me, identity and heritage are vital aspects of supporting a lower-league side. After all, players will come and go whereas a club’s soul will last forever. I’d suggest that a true fan would realise this, instead of advocating that every single penny of the club’s disposable income is chucked at young loanees and mercenary players who will move on within half a season.

We also do not want a ‘pretty badge’. We just want an emblem which reflects our history, heritage and identity like every other single club in the Football League. Is this too much to ask? The current badge is predominantly a commercial clip art logo. It is an embarrassment and I can’t believe that some people have even had it permanently tattooed across their flesh.

Where does the Conference fit in with this discussion? Will reverting back to the Loggerheads suddenly see us relegated two divisions? Having a badge we can wear with pride (unlike the current logo) and having a successful football team are NOT mutually exclusive: it would be very possible for us to enjoy both at STFC. This is a really babyish way of thinking lad.

Reading between the lines, you’re insinuating that a future re-brand will reduce the playing budget and affect the results of the team. Absolute codswallop and you’d have to be a fantasist to fear this. Shrewsbury Town Football Club turns over approximately 5 million pounds per season. The cost of changing its badge would be small fry proportionately and would certain not have an impact on the players available for Graham Turner.

A survey we conducted amongst those who completed our petition revealed that 63% would increase their spending in the club shop if the Loggerheads were to return. We have not obtained answers outside the stadium but I would expect the results to be very similar. You will probably view this as a weakness in my argument but you do not need a survey to substantiate common sense. For example, no one has ever stood outside the New Meadow with a clipboard and asked supporters ‘Is Joe Hart a better goalkeeper than Ian Dunbavin?’ but you can be damn sure of the expected results.

I personally know of about 20 people who refuse to purchase anything featuring the clip art lion. They range from youngsters to pensioners; from those in the Family Stand to those in Block 19. Maybe it speaks volumes about the kind of fans you associate with on a matchday? Modern football anyone?

No idea who you were speaking to at Evesham but he sounds like an excellent supporter to me who has obviously done his research (http://www.bringbacktheloggerheads.co.uk) and formed his own opinion on the current clip art crest. I am actually inclined to agree with you about him wearing the shirt though as it certainly sends mixed messages. That said it is probable that the individual concerned will have now purchased an iron-on Loggerheads patch to conceal the clip art lion crest, as have many other fans. This ‘bandwagon’ is only going to get stronger owd lad. You’ll notice more and more Loggerheads on the terraces in the months ahead.

As with Stu, this is just my opinion – I personally don’t mind too much about how well my team do. I just want to feel an affinity with my local football club and at present the badge seriously inhibits my ability to do this. I do not know Stu in person (I’m sure he’s a top bloke) but he strikes me as someone who would be delighted for the club to sacrifice its identity - ala Cardiff City - in exchange for on-the-pitch success. His views are undoubtedly modern football to the core.

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Re: Loggerheads?

Postby stushrew » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:04 pm

Thanks for the reply Agent - albeit very long. Strange to be called soulless by someone who knows nothing about me simply because I don't agree with you - shame you had to make things personal and make comments and judgments on my character rather than simply having a debate. "he strikes me as someone who would be delighted for the club to sacrifice its identity - ala Cardiff City - in exchange for on-the-pitch success." is actually very far from the truth and would probably be akin to saying that you would love to see the club go insolvent as long as the new club starting in the Grockleton Hamster Premier Sunday League had the loggers on their shirt when they play on Sundourne pitches. I hope that would be incorrect also.

We have had this debate before and the arguments have not changed either way. You seem to reading a fair bit behind the lines as to my opinion and my values but you are actually reading too much. You do not know the first thing about me so judge on my actual words not what you want to think they mean.

For example I wrote "Maybe some people would rather us be in the conference and have a pretty badge?". I did not say that a new badge would put us there - just that some people would be happier with the old badge than a club doing well which you implied you'd be happy with - "I personally don’t mind too much about how well my team do". Would you go back to the conference in exchange for the loggers back? (Actually I really enjoyed the Conf season - all those little grounds - great away support etc).

I say it as I see it and am not insinuating, disguising etc The only time I mentioned you was to ask if you had the figures for shirt sales over the Loggers and Clippy seasons for comparison (which you didn't answer by the way) so please do not pass comment on my character. ie BE NICE! ;-)

My point is as I said - regardless of how much money we make - there's obviously not enough going into the squad to be challenging in this league judging by this season- I don't need the debate about 'where has the money gone' - I don't know but it doesn't look like the squad and that's where we need it for next season. If we have available cash being invested (not turnover which means nothing so its a pointless figure) to have a strong squad , and surplus to put into another re-branding I'd be happy for the loggerheads to come back and go with the other piles of shirts, tops, jackets etc I have already with the loggerheads, clippy and 'the shrew' on. I do prefer it to clippy but its not my priority when it comes to the club.

If people want to get upset about this that's up to them. I will still buy my season ticket, away tickets, and a lot of merch regardless.
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Re: Loggerheads?

Postby AgentOrange » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:27 pm

stushrew wrote:If people want to get upset about this that's up to them. I will still buy my season ticket, away tickets, and a lot of merch regardless.

Hi Stu.

Much of your response has the ring of the truth. I apologise unreservedly for making personal assumptions based upon your earlier comments. It seems as though I misjudged the situation.

In an ideal world, we would both love to see Shrewsbury Town FC playing in League One with the famous Loggerheads on its shirts. We are not too far away from seeing this become a reality and it will be a proud day when those three leopard heads are finally reinstated once and for all.

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Re: Loggerheads?

Postby stushrew » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:30 pm

AgentOrange wrote:
stushrew wrote:If people want to get upset about this that's up to them. I will still buy my season ticket, away tickets, and a lot of merch regardless.

Hi Stu.

Much of your response has the ring of the truth. I apologise unreservedly for making personal assumptions based upon your earlier comments. It seems as though I misjudged the situation.

In an ideal world, we would both love to see Shrewsbury Town FC playing in League One with the famous Loggerheads on its shirts. We are not too far away from seeing this become a reality and it will be a proud day when those three leopard heads are finally reinstated once and for all.

Come On You Blues.


Cheers to that Agent!
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Re: Loggerheads?

Postby neilsalop » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:40 pm

Three LEOPARDS (not feckin' lions) heads in a two over one formation, with Foreat Salopia back too. No compromise. Ever.

Let the sycophants keep lenny the logo if they want, but not for me thanks. Maybe you could get someone to knock up some iron on tat to cover the rightful badge when it comes back.

Question for Ian. Do you prefer the new logo or the old badge? Honestly now or not at all.
GIVE US BACK THE LOGGERHEADS
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Re: Loggerheads?

Postby ianwhit » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:43 am

neilsalop wrote:Three LEOPARDS (not feckin' lions) heads in a two over one formation, with Foreat Salopia back too. No compromise. Ever.

Let the sycophants keep lenny the logo if they want, but not for me thanks. Maybe you could get someone to knock up some iron on tat to cover the rightful badge when it comes back.

Question for Ian. Do you prefer the new logo or the old badge? Honestly now or not at all.


But it must be interesting that Geoff has said he's be ok with the loggerheads repositioned.

As a Town fan and as a personal opinion I hate the Loggerheads Geoff and Co are using, for me its connected with the club nothing being very good, relegation to the Conference, the football of the late 1990s/early/mid 2000s. I much prefer the river loop badge, that is Shrewsbury Town.
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Re: Loggerheads?

Postby neilsalop » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:21 am

I don't think anyone is demanding an exact copy of the previous badge and to be honest I wouldn't mind a badge that bought the loop back as long as we got the 2 over 1 loggerheads in there and FS too. The current logo (I refuse to dignify it with the word badge) is mediocre at best and doesn't represent the town or the club in any way, shape or form and I cannot for the life of me see how the club was hoodwinked into accepting it the first place. Someone misinformed the club and have made us a laughing stock through their laziness and/or ineptitude.

As for people admitting that they would welcome three leopards heads in any formation, I think some are so desperate to rid the club of the logo, that they would be prepared to compromise their true thoughts and hopes. I wouldn't be. 2 over 1 and FS would be a minimum requirement for me, no compromise, but if someone wanted to add the loop, the castle or something else that would probably be acceptable.
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Re: Loggerheads?

Postby AgentOrange » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:10 pm

ianwhit wrote:But it must be interesting that Geoff has said he's be ok with the loggerheads repositioned.

Not strictly true. I said I would be prepared to compromise on the positioning of the Loggerheads if it was PROVEN that the club cannot use the two-up-one-down formation for copyright reasons.

I don't believe that the club can provide documentary evidence of this (namely as I doubt it's true) and hence my preference is exactly the same as Neil's: three leopard heads, triangular formation and the Floreat Salopia motto.

There are several organisations in Shrewsbury (e.g. the cricket club, the rugby club, Pengwern Boat Club and the council) who have all been able to incorporate the Loggerheads in their usual pattern into their proud logos. Copyright has not been an issue for them. Why is it mysteriously a problem for STFC? Red herring after red herring...

And I think it's quite silly to connect a badge to negative memories of the club's failures. There is no correlation between a club's emblem and its on-the-pitch performances. At least during the relegation season you could wear the shirt with pride! We certainly can't now.
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Re: Loggerheads?

Postby ianwhit » Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:00 pm

AgentOrange wrote:
ianwhit wrote:But it must be interesting that Geoff has said he's be ok with the loggerheads repositioned.

Not strictly true. I said I would be prepared to compromise on the positioning of the Loggerheads if it was PROVEN that the club cannot use the two-up-one-down formation for copyright reasons.


It is pleasing that you have stated you are happy with the repositioning, but shows what an interesting discussion it will be if a fellow loggerheads supporter such as Neil doesn't agree with your views.
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Re: Loggerheads?

Postby AgentOrange » Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:22 pm

ianwhit wrote:It is pleasing that you have stated you are happy with the repositioning, but shows what an interesting discussion it will be if a fellow loggerheads supporter such as Neil doesn't agree with your views.

No I didn't.

I said I would accept this alternative only if the club have no other option due to copyright process. Please do not misquote me sir.

Are you going to answer my question as regards how other sporting organisations in Shrewsbury can copyright their respective logos which feature the Loggerheads in a two-up-one-down formation...?
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Re: Loggerheads?

Postby Matt_ » Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:24 pm

ianwhit wrote:As a Town fan and as a personal opinion I hate the Loggerheads Geoff and Co are using, for me its connected with the club nothing being very good, I much prefer the river loop badge, that is Shrewsbury Town.


A badge we have used for a grand total of 3 seasons in our 127 year history?

What a bizarre viewpoint to take, you may as well take the view that we should play in white shorts and blue shorts, we've used that for about the same amount of time.

Neither are Shrewsbury Town.

As for being associated with the club not being very good. Which badge were we using in the promotion seasons of 1993/4, 1978/9 and 1974/5, heck we were even wearing it at the Britannia in the Conference season too.
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